Posts by jonathan dough

15

Letter About 1914 and Fred Franz

by Bangalore in

.

bangalore.

jonathan dough

The letter makes the statement again that the organization's elders and Governing Body are "not directly inspired by God." How can that be? How can God's alleged only organization not be inspired by God? How can mountains of written materials not be inspired by God? It's a tacit admission that they cannot be God's only organization. Why would anyone want to belong to a religion that is not inspired by God? Who inspires them? I think we know the answer to that.

23

Some thoughts on Zechariah 7:1-5 as it relates to 607 vs. 587 B.C.

by sd-7 in

(zechariah 7:1-5) 7 furthermore, it came about that in the fourth year of darius the king the word of jehovah occurred to zechariah, on the fourth [day] of the ninth month, [that is,] in chis'lev.

2 and beth'el proceeded to send share'zer and re'gem-mel'ech and his men to soften the face of jehovah, 3 saying to the priests who belonged to the house of jehovah of armies, and to the prophets, even saying: shall i weep in the fifth month, practicing an abstinence, the way i have done these o how many years?

4 and the word of jehovah of armies continued to occur to me, saying: 5 say to all the people of the land and to the priests, when you fasted and there was a wailing in the fifth [month] and in the seventh [month], and this for seventy years, did you really fast to me, even me?

jonathan dough

A period during which Jews fasted over the temple and the death of governor Gedaliah, referred to at Zechariah 1:12 and Zechariah 7:5. This period ran from 587 BCE (temple destroyed (fifth month) and Gedaliah killed (seventh month)) until 517 BCE (Darius' fourth year).

We agree that the JWs are incorrect in referring to the 70 years of Zechariah as the same 70 years of Babylonian domination mentioned at Jer. 25:11 (or as they see it, 70 years of Jewish exile in Babylon) , but some argue that Zech. is referring to two 70-year periods, not just the one you mentioned. And each of those two periods are (were) ongoing and do not refer back 20 years to the end, or fullfilment, of the 70 years of Jeremiah 25:11.

As you correctly point out, in Zech. 7:5," this period ran from 587 BCE (temple destroyed (fifth month) and Gedaliah killed (seventh month)) until 517 BCE (Darius' fourth year)". But if 1:12 and 7:5 refer to the same 70 years, isn't there a two-year discrepancy between the 2nd year of Darius of 1:12 (519/20) and the 4th year of Darius at 7:5 (517/18)? The context of 1:12 seems to indicate that the continued desolate condition of the temple, as it was still in ruins, was the object of the plea for YHWH to have mercy (i.e., please Lord, have mercy and help us restore the temple). And in 1:16 (the context of the plea) YHWH would turn to Jerusalem and show Israel mercy and build his house, the temple. How are the 2 years between Darius' second and fourth year reconciled in order to make them the same 70-year-period? Some might argue that 1:12 was just a vision looking forward, or something murky like that. The Zech. 1:12 70 years amount to only 68 years if one counts back to 587.

Some, like the Catholics, get around the 70 years by claiming they all are mere periods of time, one vague generation, and not to be taken literaly. Not sure if I go along with that, but it's plausible.

15

Need some sage JWN advice

by Simon Morley in

jw
friends

it has been two years since my family stopped attending and being "active".

my daughter is in her 30's settled and teaching with a masters degree she got post her separation and divorce four years ago from a witness, she is remaried and happy.

we just celebrated our first xmas since joining jw in the early 80's.. my wife now has increasing bouts of extreme anger (that border on violence) directed primarily at me for wasting twenty years of her life and causing my daughter to have periodic problems with flashbacks and anxiety.

jonathan dough

Something else might be going on. Don't think it's all JW related.

33

Help requested for court case

by Anony Mous in

i am looking for court cases and news reports on underage children being denied blood transfusions and as a result either having the court intervene or death.

any report especially 2008-2011 will work very well.. also any jw publication that says jw's die rather than accepting blood.

also any jw publication that encourages this practice in regards children especially official documents and recent publications (2005-2011 or whenever the last doctrinal change was).. .

jonathan dough

Child Custody issues and links to some lawyers:

jehovahswitnessesexperts.com
http://www.jehovahswitnessesexperts.com/index.html

mmoutreachinc.com
http://www.mmoutreachinc.com/jehovahs_witnesses/help.html

mmoutreachinc.com
http://www.mmoutreachinc.com/jehovahs_witnesses/jwchildcustody2.html

mmoutreachinc.com
http://mmoutreachinc.com/jw_lawyers.html

Martindale-Hubbell - Find a lawyer specializing in family law; U.S.A.,Canada and other countries
http://www.martindale.com/Family-Law-law-firms-countries.htm

freeminds.org
http://www.freeminds.org/sociology/children/notes-on-jehovah-s-witness-custody-cases.html

jwchildcustody.com
http://jwchildcustody.com/

andrewfosterlaw.com/ - overview
http://www.andrewfosterlaw.com/lawyer-attorney-7F24EF5E-1495-441C-97E83C5961B7238E.html

nolo.com - overview
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/article-29887.html

escapefromwatchtower.com
http://www.escapefromwatchtower.com/childcustody.html

4jehovah.org
http://4jehovah.org/help-jw-child-custody.php

freeminds.org
http://www.freeminds.org/sociology/children/critical-review-of-preparing-for-child-custody-cases.html

rickross.com
http://www.rickross.com/reference/jw/jw85.html

watchman.org
http://www.watchman.org/jw/jwcourt.htm

jubilee.org.nz
http://www.jubilee.org.nz/articles/jehovahs-witness-issues/

virginia-lawyer.us
http://www.virginia-lawyer.us/lawyer-attorney-7F24EF5E-1495-441C-97E83C5961B7238E.html

peoplestandup.ca
http://www.peoplestandup.ca/familystory.htm

iclnet.org
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/apl/jw/awaken-005.txt
watchtower.org
http://www.watchtower.org/e/19931008/article_01.htm

jwdivorces.bravehost
http://jwdivorces.bravehost.com/

hgoldstein.com
http://www.hgoldstein.com/cases/Felton-v-Felton.htm

family.findlaw.com
http://family.findlaw.com/child-custody/custody-who/child-religion%281%29.html

ex-jw.com
http://ex-jw.com/an-interesting-twist-in-a-child-custody-case

letusreason.org
http://www.letusreason.org/JW24.htm

33

Help requested for court case

by Anony Mous in

i am looking for court cases and news reports on underage children being denied blood transfusions and as a result either having the court intervene or death.

any report especially 2008-2011 will work very well.. also any jw publication that says jw's die rather than accepting blood.

also any jw publication that encourages this practice in regards children especially official documents and recent publications (2005-2011 or whenever the last doctrinal change was).. .

jonathan dough

Maybe here re the blood issue:

jwfacts.com and ajwrb.org and marvinshilmer.blogspot.com are good beginnings.

ajwrb.org
http://www.ajwrb.org/

jwfacts.com
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/blood-transfusions.php

http://jws.reslight.net
http://jws.reslight.net/?p=24

witnessinc.com
http://www.witnessinc.com/blood.html

marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com/

firstandlast.org
http://www.firstandlast.org.uk/blood.html

jehovahswitnesstruth.com
http://www.jehovahswitnesstruth.com/blood.htm

watchman.org
http://www.watchman.org/jw/bloodbulgaria.htm

freeminds.org
http://www.freeminds.org/blogs/tough-questions-for-jehovah-s-witnesses/number-2-jehovah-s-witnesses-and-blood.html

freeminds.org
http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/medicine/jehovah-s-witnesses-and-the-apostolic-decree-to-abstain-from-blood.html

freeminds.org
http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/medicine/blood-and-the-law-of-god.html

freeminds.org
http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/medicine/blood-is-a-religious-issue.html
Doug Mason

freeminds.org
http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/medicine/gene-smalley-and-the-watchtower-s-blood-transfusion-doctrine.html

freeminds.org
http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/medicine/blood-and-the-law-of-god.html
Reprinted

soundwitness.org
http://www.soundwitness.org/jw/a_few_questions_on_blood.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses_and_blood_transfusions

religioustolerance.org
http://www.religioustolerance.org/witness5.htm

4jehovah.org
http://4jehovah.org/jehovahs-witness-blood-transfusion.php

suite101.com
http://www.suite101.com/content/jehovahs-witnesses-and-blood-transfusions-a200029

bible.ca
http://www.bible.ca/jw-blood.htm

http://orthocath.wordpress.com
http://orthocath.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/jehovahs-witnesses-and-blood-transfusions-for-minors/
Good

http://jehovah.net.au
http://jehovah.net.au/blood.html
Good, jehovah.net from australia but it might be the same as jwfacts.

Jehovah's Witnesses, blood transfusions, and the tort of misrepresentation
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3244/is_4_47/ai_n29228845/

thejehovahswitnesses.org
http://thejehovahswitnesses.org/blood-transfusions.php

watchtowerinformationservice.org
http://www.watchtowerinformationservice.org/blood-medical-issues/the-blood-transfusion-taboo-of-jehovahs-witnesses/

exjehovahswitness.net
http://www.exjehovahswitness.net/2008/03/blood-transfusions-jehovahs-witnesses-base-their-beliefs-on-ancient-myth

mmoutreachinc.com
http://www.mmoutreachinc.com/jehovahs_witnesses/blood_transfusions.html

mmoutreachinc.com
http://www.mmoutreachinc.com/jehovahs_witnesses/blood_new_light/bloodletters/blood_legal.html
legal issues but CAVEAT as it copies another web site called :Excerpts from "Jehovah's Witnesses,Blood Transfusions, and the Tort of Misrepresentation"

associatedcontent.com
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1480742/the_facts_about_the_jehovahs_witness.html?cat=70
short

noblood.org
http://www.noblood.org/forums/

oodegr.com
http://www.oodegr.com/english/watchtower/aima1.htm

web.archive.org
http://web.archive.org/web/20040214185915/http://www.stnicholasla.com/blood.htm

modernmedicine.com
http://www.modernmedicine.com/modernmedicine/Modern+Medicine+Now/Management-of-pregnancy-in-the-Jehovahs-Witness/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/697972?contextCategoryId=40157

jwinfo.net
http://www.jwinfo.net/?p=470

pnc.com.au
http://www.pnc.com.au/~fichrist/blood.html

pnc.com.au
http://www.pnc.com.au/~fichrist/bulgaria.html

jwfiles.com
http://www.jwfiles.com/wt_blood/blood.htm

towertotruth.net
http://www.towertotruth.net/Articles/blood_transfusions.htm

watchthetower.net
http://www.watchthetower.net/deadkidz.html

afn.org
http://www.afn.org/~afn52344/dissertation1.html

watchman.org
http://www.watchman.org/jw/warblood.htm

letusreason.org
http://www.letusreason.org/JW11.htm

62

Where is the Statement That JWs Should Follow the GB Even If They Think They Are Wrong?

by Justitia Themis in

i am having difficulty locating the recent printed statement that jws should follow the gb even if they think they are wrong.

would someone please let me know where that is?.

jt.

jonathan dough

Now that we all know how the Society frowns on and forbids independent thinking, shouldn't we be listing the scriptural reasons for questioning this unbiblical prohibition? What verses prove them wrong? What verses require that we must question their false teachings? That believers must reject doctrine that is obviously false.

62

Where is the Statement That JWs Should Follow the GB Even If They Think They Are Wrong?

by Justitia Themis in

i am having difficulty locating the recent printed statement that jws should follow the gb even if they think they are wrong.

would someone please let me know where that is?.

jt.

jonathan dough

Hearing David Splane at a Circuit Assembly rant and pound his finger into the podium while telling the audience that they 'must obey the GB as though they were listening to the voice of God' was the last straw, I was in the presence of a true megalomaniac.

"Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness [ a ] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God." 2 Thess. 2:3,4

763

Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep in

hello all, i've been reading your site for a couple of years now, and have found, for the most part, it to be very helpful.

i must say, at first i was very "scared" at what i might find, but contrary to what i grew up learning, there is a "wealth" of information outside of the watchtower organization.

i haven't attended meetings for about two years now, and like many i've read about, have spent many hours researching, telling myself "i'm not wrong for searching", and doing more research.

jonathan dough

The fact of the matter is that from the time of the desolation of the land without an inhabitant until the reoccupation of the exiles was exactly seventy years right to the very month Tishri.

Scholar seems convinced that the exile ended in 537 on the exiles' return to Palestine, but that is incorrect. Accordingly, the JWs' Return theory falls short of 70 years.

G. The nations' seventy years of servitude ended in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon fell to the Persians and Medes while the exiles were still in Babylon, thus bringing to a conclusion the servitude prophecy at Jeremiah 25:11, before the Jews returned home.

So, in light of Jeremiah’s detailed explanation in chapter 25 and elsewhere that the seventy years of servitude applied to the nations of the earth that came under the domination of Babylon, the Dominant Babylonian Empire theory, what did he intend to convey in his letter to the exiles at Jeremiah 29:10? Did he mean that after the nations collectively finished serving Babylon seventy years when the empire fell he would turn his attention to the exiles and return them home? Or did he mean, as the Jehovah’s Witnesses argue, that after the exiles returned home to Judah after having served at Babylon seventy years, beginning with the destruction of Jerusalem, he would turn his attention to them and bring them home from Babylon? That doesn't make sense, but that is precisely what they are arguing, even though on its face it is obviously illogical. None-the-less, even assuming that their interpretation is correct it fails repeatedly under a simple test.

Under the test, if the seventy-year period ended in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon fell and the Persians and Medes began to reign while the exiles were still in Babylon, the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Return theory fails in three significant ways: a) the seventy years obviously did not end upon their return in 537 B.C.E., b) their seventy-year period amounts to only 68 years from 607 B.C.E. to 539 B.C.E., and c) from the fall of Babylon in October 539 B.C.E. to the exiles’ return to Judah in 537 B.C.E. there was no king of Babylon to serve. So when exactly did the prophecy at Jeremiah 25:11 end, whereby “these nations” would stop serving the king of Babylon seventy years? It ended in October, 539 B.C.E., not upon their return in 537 B.C.E.

First, nowhere in the Bible does it state that the return of the Jews marked the end of the seventy years. Second, Leviticus 26:32-35 whereby Moses prophesied the pending curse and punishment that befell the Jews states that Jehovah would scatter them among the nations and that the land would become a desolation, and Judah would pay off its Sabbaths all the days of its lying desolate while the exiles were in the land of their enemies, Babylon, and not after they returned.

32 And I, for my part, will lay the land desolate, and YOUR enemies who are dwelling in it will simply stare in amazement over it. 33 And YOU I shall scatter among the nations, and I will unsheathe a sword after YOU; and YOUR land must become a desolation, and YOUR cities will become a desolate ruin.
34 “‘At that time the land will pay off its sabbaths all the days of its lying desolated, while YOU are in the land of YOUR enemies. At that time the land will keep sabbath, as it must repay its sabbaths. 35 All the days of its lying desolated it will keep sabbath, for the reason that it did not keep sabbath during YOUR sabbaths when YOU were dwelling upon it.

So even though the exiles had not reoccupied the desolated lands and were still in Babylon, the seventy-year prophetic curse ended.

Third, Jeremiah 25:12 states that only after the seventy years had ended, or been fulfilled, Jehovah would call to account against the king of Babylon, which he did beginning with its fall to Cyrus in October 539 B.C.E., one date the Jehovah’s Witnesses and everyone else seem to agree on. The seventy years ended when Babylon fell, not two years later when the exiles stepped foot back on the soil of Judah.

12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘their error, even against the land of the Chal·de´ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite. 13 And I will bring in upon that land all my words that I have spoken against it, even all that is written in this book that Jeremiah has prophesied against all the nations. 14 For even they themselves, many nations and great kings, have exploited them as servants; and I will repay them according to their activity and according to the work of their hands.’”

Fourth, Jeremiah 29:10 likewise concludes the end of the seventy-year period of servitude while the Jews were in Babylon, not after they returned.

10 “For this is what Jehovah has said, ‘In accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon I shall turn my attention to YOU people, and I will establish toward YOU my good word in bringing YOU back to this place.’
11 “‘For I myself well know the thoughts that I am thinking toward YOU,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘thoughts of peace, and not of calamity, to give YOU a future and a hope. 12 And YOU will certainly call me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to YOU.’
13 “‘And YOU will actually seek me and find [me], for YOU will search for me with all YOUR heart. 14 And I will let myself be found by YOU,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. ‘And I will gather YOUR body of captives and collect YOU together out of all the nations and out of all the places to which I have dispersed YOU,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. ‘And I will bring YOU back to the place from which I caused YOU to go into exile.’

After the seventy years ended Jehovah would turn his attention to his people and bring them back. The seventy years had to end first in 539 B.C.E., in Babylon, and only then would his people be gathered together and brought back.

Fifth, 2 Chronicles 36:20 states that the captives removed to Babylon would be servants to the king “until the royalty of Persia began to reign,” which began October 539 B.C.E. and not until the exiles physically returned to Judah two years later.

"Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign; ... "

Both sides agree that Babylon fell to the Persians in October 539 B.C.E. That fall signaled the beginning of Persia’s reign. The prophet Daniel foretold its sudden collapse when he interpreted the writing on the wall for Babylon’s king Belshazzer,“This is the interpretation of the word: MENE, God has numbered [the days of] your kingdom and finished it.” And he did in 539 B.C.E.

Sixth, the Jehovah’s Witnesses at page 24 contradict themselves because they also claim that Ezra wrote that the seventy years ran until the first year of Cyrus which they submit was his first regnal year, which would actually be his second year of having power.

... the inspired Bible writer Ezra reported that the 70 years ran until “the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia,” who issued a decree allowing the Jews to return to their homeland. (Ezra 1:1-4; 2 Chronicles 36:21-23)

At Ezra 1:1, reference is made to “the first year of Cyrus,” not “the year Cyrus became king” (or accession year), so he was speaking of the first regnal year of Cyrus, which cuneiform documentation places in 538/537B.C.E. Jewish historian Josephus corroborates by referring to “the first year of the reign of Cyrus.”—Antiquities of the Jews, Book XI, Chapter I.

This statement is false. The inspired Bible writer Ezra never said that, and furthermore, their position contradicts the Jehovah’s Witnesses' own claim under its Return theory that the seventy years ran until the exiles returned to Judah in the fall of 537 B.C.E., long after the decree setting them free was issued, and after Cyrus began to reign. Not only is it a contradiction, but it is not correct. In the first place it contravenes 2 Chronicles 36:22 just quoted which pegs the end of the 70 years at the inception of the reign of Persian royalty, which began immediately when Babylon fell in 539 B.C.E., not one year later beginning with the second, or ‘regnal’ year of Cyrus’ rule. Again, common sense is in order. Setting the Record Straight at 24 claims “the first year of Cyrus” was his first regnal year which would be his second actual year of ruling Babylon. However that would create a one-year gap between Babylon’s fall and the Persians’ reign, and surely no one could suggest that when Cyrus made his triumphant entry 16 days after Babylon’s fall in October 539 B.C.E. to his army that the reign of Persia had not yet begun or that the Babylonian Empire was still ruling and in control. Daniel said that the Babylonian kingdom was finished.

Read Ezra 1:1-4 and 2 Chronicles 36:21-23 carefully. Ezra did not state that the seventy years ran until the first regnal (or second actual) year of Cyrus the Persian’s reign. Ezra did not say that in order for the seventy years to come to an end Cyrus had to issue his decree setting them free which was long after Persia began to rule. One of their contradictions ends in Babylon, the other in Judah, and it is strategically and scripturally not feasible to occur at the exact same time or in the same year.

So what basis do the Jehovah’s Witnesses claim supports their belief that the seventy-year prophecy ended upon the exiles’ return to Judah in 537 B.C.E. and not earlier when Babylon fell to Persia in 539 B.C.E.? Nothing, as it turns out, although they allude to their reasoning in Setting the Record Straight at p. 25, 26:

“And in the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia, that Jehovah’s word from the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Jehovah roused the spirit of Cyrus the king of Persia so that he caused a cry to pass through all his realm.”—Ezra 1:1 (see also 2 Chronicles 36:22).
The highlighted portion of the above-quoted verse serves as unimpeachable evidence that “Jehovah’s word from the mouth of Jeremiah” had not yet been accomplished, even by the “first year of Cyrus,” proving conclusively that the conquest of Babylon by Persia was not the determining factor in fulfilling Jeremiah’s prophecy.

All that this vague and convoluted assertion attempts to state is that the seventy-year period allegedly ended when the Jews returned in 537 B.C.E. and not when Babylon fell in 539 B.C.E.; that the Jews’ return had not happened by the time Babylon fell. Well, of course it hadn’t, but more importantly, it wasn’t a requirement because the seventy years ended in 539 B.C.E., not on their return. Because their return happened two years after Persia conquered Babylon, the Dominant Babylonian Empire theory fails, they claim, because Babylon was conquered two years before their return.

This false and distorted piece of logic begs the essential question: “When did the seventy years end?” Had they been forthcoming and actually quoted Jehovah’s word from the mouth of Jeremiah rather than force the reader to hunt for its meaning it would have been self-evident, but more importantly, it would have proven them wrong which is perhaps why they did not wish to bring it to the readers' attention in the first place.

We can determine what Jehovah’s word was by reference to Ezra 1:1-4 and 2 Chronicles 36:22 which they quote in support of their position. And even though neither one of these verses specify what the word of Jehovah was either, the context and subject matter of these Scriptures indicates that it referres to Jehovah’s promise to return the Jews and Cyrus’ decree setting them free.

1 And in the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia, that Jehovah’s word from the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Jehovah roused the spirit of Cyrus the king of Persia so that he caused a cry to pass through all his realm, and also in writing, saying:
2 “This is what Cyrus the king of Persia has said, ‘All the kingdoms of the earth Jehovah the God of the heavens has given me, and he himself has commissioned me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. 3 Whoever there is among YOU of all his people, may his God prove to be with him. So let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and rebuild the house of Jehovah the God of Israel—he is the [true] God—which was in Jerusalem. 4 As for anyone that is left from all the places where he is residing as an alien, let the men of his place assist him with silver and with gold and with goods and with domestic animals along with the voluntary offering for the house of the [true] God, which was in Jerusalem.’”(Ezra 1:1-4 see also 2 Chronicles 36:22,23).

Jehovah’s word related to the return of the Jews and is found at Jeremiah 29:10. But only after the seventy years had ended would he turn his attention to returning the Jews.

10 “For this is what Jehovah has said, ‘In accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon I shall turn my attention to YOU people, and I will establish toward YOU my good word in bringing YOU back to this place.’

This, in actuality, is unimpeachable evidence that the seventy years of servitude came to an end first in 539 B.C.E. and only later, in 537 B.C.E. would the Jews return. Accordingly, it is not necessary or even possible that the ‘return’ occur before Babylon fell and the seventy years ended. Even with their improper rendering that the seventy years would be accomplished at Babylon, the Jehovah’s Witnesses' Return theory lacks merit. Jeremiah 29:10 supports the Dominant Babylonian Empire theory and disproves the Jehovah’s Witnesses' Return theory.

23

Some thoughts on Zechariah 7:1-5 as it relates to 607 vs. 587 B.C.

by sd-7 in

(zechariah 7:1-5) 7 furthermore, it came about that in the fourth year of darius the king the word of jehovah occurred to zechariah, on the fourth [day] of the ninth month, [that is,] in chis'lev.

2 and beth'el proceeded to send share'zer and re'gem-mel'ech and his men to soften the face of jehovah, 3 saying to the priests who belonged to the house of jehovah of armies, and to the prophets, even saying: shall i weep in the fifth month, practicing an abstinence, the way i have done these o how many years?

4 and the word of jehovah of armies continued to occur to me, saying: 5 say to all the people of the land and to the priests, when you fasted and there was a wailing in the fifth [month] and in the seventh [month], and this for seventy years, did you really fast to me, even me?

jonathan dough

Scholar the JW apologist wrote a few years ago:

all of these texts speak of a definite, singular seventy year period pertaining not ever to Babylon but to Judah, Jerusale, and its people with a definite beginning and end which was known to those who were involved.

scholar JW

Zechariah absolutely demonstrates that there is only one period of seventy years for Judah specified in the entire OT.The context of both chapters proves that the seventy years was that past momentous event known to Zechariah and the now returned people.

Anyone can make a statement, but can he prove it? I think it's clear the OT speaks of at least three 70-year-periods. One fixed 70 years does not fit chronologically whatsoever.

23

Some thoughts on Zechariah 7:1-5 as it relates to 607 vs. 587 B.C.

by sd-7 in

(zechariah 7:1-5) 7 furthermore, it came about that in the fourth year of darius the king the word of jehovah occurred to zechariah, on the fourth [day] of the ninth month, [that is,] in chis'lev.

2 and beth'el proceeded to send share'zer and re'gem-mel'ech and his men to soften the face of jehovah, 3 saying to the priests who belonged to the house of jehovah of armies, and to the prophets, even saying: shall i weep in the fifth month, practicing an abstinence, the way i have done these o how many years?

4 and the word of jehovah of armies continued to occur to me, saying: 5 say to all the people of the land and to the priests, when you fasted and there was a wailing in the fifth [month] and in the seventh [month], and this for seventy years, did you really fast to me, even me?

jonathan dough

From Paradise Restored to Mankind -- by Theocracy (1972), p. 130ff: an old Narkissos post.

18 "So the angel of Jehovah answered and said: ‘O Jehovah of armies, how long will you yourself not show mercy to Jerusalem and to the cities of Judah, whom you have denounced these seventy years?’"—Zechariah 1:12. 19 To some minds, according to what was said by the angel, it appeared that Jehovah’s denunciation of "these seventy years" was still continuing against Jerusalem and the other cities of Judah. This was due to the fact that the rebuilding of his temple had been neglected for the past seventeen years. He had had very much indignation against their fathers who suffered exile because of profaning the former temple that had been built by King Solomon. Now, in the eighth month (Heshvan) of the year 520 B.C.E. Jehovah had warned the repatriated Jewish remnant to avoid suffering divine indignation through becoming like their fathers and not returning to Jehovah with zeal for full worship of Him through a rebuilt temple. (Zechariah 1:1-6)

In the light of this we are to understand the outcry of the angel according to what these things might indicate to him regarding Jerusalem and the other cities of repopulated Judah. 20 The angel’s mention of these "seventy years" calls to mind the seventy years mentioned by the prophet Jeremiah. During those seventy years the nations of Judah and Israel must serve the dynasty of kings of Babylon, at the end of which seventy years Jehovah was to call the erroneous conduct of the king of Babylon and of the Chaldeans to account and He would punish them therefor. (Jeremiah 25:11-13) So did Jehovah’s angel mean that those seventy years had not yet ended, or that they had just now ended? This could not historically be true. Why not? Because about twenty years before this (in 539 B.C.E.) Jehovah had used Cyrus the Great of Persia to overthrow Babylon as a world power and about two years later, in 537 B.C.E., Jehovah moved Cyrus who was acting as the king of Babylon to let the Jewish exiles leave Babylon and return to Jerusalem to rebuild Jehovah’s temple.—Ezra 1:1 to 2:2; 2 Chronicles 36:20-23. 21

Furthermore, the land of Judah was to keep a "sabbath, to fulfill seventy years." (2 Chronicles 36:21) How? By lying as a "desolate waste without man and domestic animal," it having been "given into the hand of the Chaldeans." (Jeremiah 32:43; 33:10-12) Both the prophet Zechariah and the angels knew that those seventy years of utter desolation of the land of Judah and Jerusalem without man and domestic animal had ended in the year 537 B.C.E. when the Jewish remnant returned from Babylon and reoccupied the land, they being reported back in their cities in the seventh month (Tishri) of that year. (Ezra 3:1, 2) Instead of its lying as a desolate waste any longer, crops began to be raised in the land, as the prophet Haggai reports seventeen years later. (Haggai 1:6-11; 2:16, 17) So those seventy years were long past! 22

If, at the time of Zechariah’s first vision, those seventy years were still continuing or were just now over, why would the angel, knowing what he did, speak as he did? Since he knew that the time period was definitely seventy years long, why would he say: "O Jehovah of armies, how long?" (Zechariah 1:12) Why, away back in the first year of Darius the Mede after the overthrow of Babylon in 539 B.C.E., the prophet Daniel "discerned by the books the number of the years concerning which the word of Jehovah had occurred to Jeremiah the prophet, for fulfilling the devastations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years." (Daniel 9:1, 2) And certainly Daniel verified the number of years, not seventeen long years before they were due to end, but immediately before the end of the seventy years in the first year of the reign of King Cyrus the Persian.

Thus the aged prophet Daniel, who lived at least into "the third year of Cyrus the king of Persia," could know that he had calculated the length of the time period correctly. (Daniel 10:1) Hence those "seventy years" did not extend to the time when Zechariah got his first vision, in 519 B.C.E. 23 Be it remembered, also, that those unforgettable seventy years were the first seventy years of the Gentile Times, "the appointed times of the nations." So, when those seventy years ended in 537 B.C.E., the Gentile Times still continued on for Jerusalem to be trampled on by the Gentile nations. (Luke 21:24) Apparently, then, the angel who cried out, "O Jehovah of armies, how long?" was referring back to that former period of seventy years as an illustration of Jehovah’s denunciation of his chosen people. He was asking whether Jehovah’s denunciation of them was being renewed because of their long neglect toward His temple. And so the angel was asking how long it would yet be before Jehovah would show mercy to Jerusalem and the other cities of Judah. The prophet Zechariah was also interested in knowing this. We, also!